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transit mania- ville

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Capton,

Thanks much for question.

For me congestion levels which are in the different shades of orange are 50/50 in terms of whether or not i feel transit modifications and upgrades are necessary.

At least playing in a larger city with the traffic setting I use ( somewhere between Z low and medium),

and also with the transit mode constraints I have placed upon myself to make this a "traffic challenge "( Highways, subways + buses only).

In a normal city than yes , orange would still be a bigger warning flag to me on congestion :)

So usually ill look for "red" areas first and try to implement transit changes in order to ease congestion in those areas as the main priority. Orange congestion areas would than come next of course.

But in answer to your question, I think the way to deal with trying to drop these subway congestion from ( Orange to Yellow), would be to first make the needed changes to the RHW in the area and see what effect that has upon the nearby subway lines. If this does not help than possibly adding a 5 th subway tube might be part of the subway congestion

solution later on.

Anyways, i am planning to get started on the new RHW upgrades in the areas i showed in the "above " pic today sometime.

thanks, Brian

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Thanks for the lengthy reply :) personally, I would deal with red and orange areas whenever I come across it, but your strategies and ways of doing things sound logical. Keep up the good work!

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Thanks for the lengthy reply :) personally, I would deal with red and orange areas whenever I come across it, but your strategies and ways of doing things sound logical. Keep up the good work!

Yes, but sometimes i fall behind with the congested areas, or I get too carried away with trying to increase density and population and the traffic can get out of hand quickly.

Normally the way I play or try to plan it out is to do just smaller increases in population, than make the needed upgrades and changes to transit that are necessary to keep traffic congestion areas at a reasonable level. It is a bit more difficult with the CAM mod sometimes because it has the added density and high occupancy of its residential Bats.as compared to vanilla SC 4.

As i stated in a prior update a very good example of this is the residential isle where I had the 2 larger apartments there. All I did was add some trees to that area after the 2 buildings had abandoned. And when the new large apartments "grew" back they were suddenly both stage 15 " CAM " residentials with a much larger population than what was there previous. So now all of a sudden I have an extra 5,000 cars streaming into the super highway than what was there previously. Essentially the main reason being , just because I decided to add some trees to the area, :D

There was no intent at all to increase population, I was just trying to "beautify" an area, see .

But it illustrates well the explosive developmental nature of the CAM mod and how quickly traffic congestion can become an issue with it. So with the CAM mod once you reach the higher stages of "CAM development", you really do have to keep a close eye on things and plan your developments at that point even more slowly and patiently.. Something I obviously do not always do :P

Anyways, i wanted to mention I am making some progress with my latest RHW upgrades due to traffic congestion . i have completed what i refer to as "stage 1" of the plan .

I am about ready to start on what i refer to as , " stage 2" of the upgrade plan.

thanks, Brian

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Imho (and Brian may think that I have nerve commenting about CAM, being the absolute rookie about it) traffic problems are primarily related to the size of the city; now, since CAM grows large buildings, especially when the large city reaches high development stages, it tends to magnify the traffic issues generated by the concentration of large crowds of commuters on specific spots in the city. If you use CAM but have only relatively 'small' cities in terms of population, you should have less or no traffic problems.

Brian, I am curious to see how you will deal with your subway congestion. I have my own ideas about it, about which I may comment later on.

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I have the CAM mod as well, and I have never encountered traffic problems with it. Maybe I'm just using it wrong :D but thanks again for the lengthy post!

As Pierre accurately stated,

the size of the city's population is the first consideration , Capton

Than next would be the difficulty of the Traffic Sim. Most people who do the basic default NAM installs have the traffic Sim ( Z medium) installed which is the "default ' traffic Sim settings.

I forget which traffic Sim Pierre has installed ?

Perhaps he will remind me in a later posting :angel:

Again, I use a custom Z traffic Sim. With the difficulty of most of the traffic settings somewhere between ( Z low) and (Z medium)..

Using 2 network capacities as our examples-

1) RHW capacity which is listed as a /per lane capacity-

Z (medium) - 10,000

Z (low ) - 6,000

Mine - 8,000 ( Note: I just raised it + 500 from 7500- 8000 such that it is now exactly

half way between Z Low + Z medium settings) ..

2) Subway network capacity-

Z (medium) - 16,000

Z ( Low) - 10,000

Mine - 15,000 ( I am a bit more lenient with the Mass transit settings on my custom

Z traffic sim. Whereas I am closer to (Z medium) than to (Z Low ) .

The road and highway network settings I tend to be a bit more difficult on myself with those ;)


Brian, I am curious to see how you will deal with your subway congestion. I have my own ideas about it, about which I may comment later on.

Thanks for your inquiry Pierre !

I have just completed the first Phase of RHW upgrades which were in the same general area as the 4 way subway system. I am going to make a separate post covering just the main highlights of this recent RHW upgrade.

I will than make sure we give the game at least 5 game years time to stabilize the traffic sim pathfinding engine and than see what effect (if any) this may have on the subway usages and congestion.

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RHW Upgrade-

This is part of the area that i will be upgrading .

it included the 4 way subway line/ system which has gotten into various stages of (oranges) congestion.-

o5f6.jpg

So the first step in the new upgrade consists of consolidating 2 MIS ramps to just 1 ramp-

And than moving the single ramp further to the East-

2x2o.jpg

This is possible because the duel ramp system has dropped down over time to lighter congestion -

b6xy.jpg

As expected the construction and testing of the new single Mis ramp indicates still only moderate congestion ( Yellow) -

txzg.jpg

Further work on the ramp was done to convert it to RHW-4 (1)

The reason for this- (2),

.. is so it can be used as part of a widening project with the rhw 6 S to form the rhw 10S=

76i6.jpg

Initially this caused a pretty big decrease in traffic congestion in both areas..

( later after running the game several more game years the ramp went back to yellow on the congestion view map).-

p67i.jpg

Here than are the completed construction highlights from a zoom 3 perspective of the entire upgrade area-

1) the upgraded and new Mis Ramp

2) widening of one of the rhw arteries from rhw-4 to rhw- 10S

3) Widening of the overpass from Rhw- 4 to Rhw- 6S

4) Widening of the North- South Rhw artery from RHW- 4 to Rhw- 8 ( east side only)

i754.jpg

The overall congestion view after running the game several game years still shows 3 problem areas left for traffic congestion -

1) a small segment of the rhw (north- south artery) still congested ( West side only).

2) East ramp still over congested (red)

3) the 4 way subway system still mostly in the (orange) on congestion-

4o82.jpg

thanks, Brian

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Brian, your traffic challenges are amazing, and it is fun to observe how you apply various measures to resolve them.

Your stretch of 'RHW 10S' is in fact only one half of it, 5 lanes in one direction; in the other direction you have half of a RHW 4S - 2 lanes. I wonder about this, since it would indicate that your flows of traffic are very asymmetrical between the morning and the evening commutes, to the point where you need 2.5 times more capacity in one direction than in the other.

I also ask myself to which extent an increase in road capacity can have a determinant effect on the use of the subway. In other words, to which extent does the simulator cause a 'modal change' (from mass transit to car driving) because of those changes? It is observable in RL (and the reverse is also true) but I wonder if the simulator is capable of using such logic.

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Continued upgrade project of the RHW system - North west sector-

The main features here was the widening of the East side of the main (North - South) RHW artery

from 2 to 4/5 lanes.

The upgrade project here went very smooth considering the complexity of the widening project.

In particular , I felt the necessity to take what I refer to as a ( pre construction -, aerial photo) of the most complicated section where i have 2 overpasses + 3 ramps in a confined area. These pre construction photos aid me in understanding the duplicated routing scheme I had in place before the upgrades start -

2n0d.jpg

Next is a zoom 3 shot of the upgraded and widened RHW -

yffb.jpg

The next congestion view pic will now show an acceptable amount of traffic congestion on both sides of the widened RHW- 8S -

w3ctv.jpg

Included here is an analysis of the remaining traffic congestion trouble spots.

3 = red , + 1 orange area remain here.

1) the 4 way subway has largely gone back to mostly red now in congestion

2) short mis ramp in the red

3) East to West RHW-4 overpass is in the Red now

4) Second east to west RHW 6S overpass is orange in traffic congestion .

Than finally, here is a more specified pic showing the current congestion state of the 4-way subways-

42bl.jpg

Thanks, Brian

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Continued RHW Upgrades in the North- West Sector

I have made some further RHW improvements in the very dense North- West section of

the city, so I would like to details those in this new update of my DD.

First i was able to get a second overpass on the North side of the interchange built to help relieve traffic congestion in what used to be just a single RHW- 4 overpass. Also this rhw-4 overpass was widened to a RHW- 6s overpass. I had to put in a few tricks to pull this off in the amount of space I had left as my first pic details-

6c6b.jpg

1) the use of what i refer to as a "Short Transition" to drop the rhw 6s back down to a rhw 4 was a key

2) the clever use of the "45" diagonal underpass was important also here.

Traffic on the 2 overpasses had now dropped down quite a bit, and the construction had its desired effect on traffic congestion.

29nv0.jpg

also as you can see from 1)

in the pic i was able to move over the 4 way subway system into more a neat orderly 4 way side by side tube system which runs east to west in the gap between some of the existing RHW networks. I did this partly because its much easier to see what is going on with the traffic congestion view maps , if you can run the subway lines away from the highways and not directly under the highways as i had them doing previously.

2) shows the actual congestion colors of the brand new 2 overpasses.

Finally a provide a zoom # 3 pic to show only a few minor areas are now left with the heavy Red traffic congestion -

oymvi.jpg

1) the south overpass/ ramp system is still in the red

2) the S- ramp is dark orange

3) a shorter ramp is red.

I will see tonite if I have any options to drop congestion in any of these remaining areas.

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Thanks Capton :D

Yes I was still at the finer details of reducing congestion on the 2 ramps and overpasses when i ran across an interesting situation concerning one of my RTMT combo stations, i will discuss.

So with one of the remaining ramps that was still in the red in congestion, I realized I had the room still to try and add a second entrance ramp into the big RHW- 8 S ( north - south) corridor highway.

The solution actually worked well , except I ran into this interesting issue, which I also posted over in our RTMT private development thread as well -

skyl9.jpg

So for those that need a bit of help with this, let me see if I can explain what is occurring here :huh:

So we have the RTMt combo station which is placed on the adjoining road to the level 2 MIS ramp. The pink arrows show the sims as pedestrians walking to the station from the nearby larger residential buildings . From that point some are either -

1) riding on the subway via the 4 tube subway system you guys have been familiar with ( the yellow arrows) ( OR)

2) there riding buses ( the blue arrows) but what we call "level jumping:" ( in this case hopping up from level 0, ( the road) directly to level 2 ( the Mis ramp).

Okay so for the Sc 4 real life transit purest , this is of course an impossibility.

But it is interesting to discuss how this effects game play in SC4 transit and traffic.

So let us look in more depth into this specific traffic example in how this effects routing and traffic congestion concerns in SC 4 by way of my second pic-

6wuu4.jpg

Okay so it is " ramp 1" which was the newly added ramp to aid in the congestion which was "red" formerly with " ramp 2"..

Now it takes a bit of practice to determine sometimes what is actually gong on in these colored congestion views when you have this complicated a transit set up going on . So hopefully the pic and labeling with it will aid in my explanations here-

Let us examine what is going with "ramp 1" first than -

The red circled area actually shows very light congestion ( shown in green) as the ramp gets its birth. However there is enough transfers coming from the attached RTMT station ( over 20 K buses level hopping up to the level 2 MIS ramp), that from the point it reaches the station we now go to red in terms of traffic congestion here. In addition it has also increased traffic congestion on our rhw- 8 S ( north - south) highway artery where we have mostly dark to medium orange on the west side of the highway. ( the east side still remains with a moderate amount of traffic shown in ( yellow).) .

Ramp # 2- ( which was again formerly over congested in the red before the construction of ramp # 1, is still in pretty good shape in terms of traffic congestion only being yellow ( the 2 circled red areas in our pic).

** NOTE : it is important again to understand why portions of the ramp are both orange and red in the congestion view than -

1) First ,the upper orange portions of the ramp are actually caused by the under ground 4 way subway system rather than being directly related to ramp # 2's traffic congestion. We do not have a congestion view map in game which can determine congestion based on height levels. So these different height level get combined into one overall colored view on the congestion map views.

2) the 2 tiles which are red where the ramp connects up with the rhw- 8 s highway are caused by the games "intersection effect", which extends up to a 2 tile radius near any connection point between 2 or more networks that the game determines to meet its definition of an "intersection".

So returning to how all of this works in conjunction with the actual game play challenges of dealing with traffic congestion issues with sc4 -

I think through my experience over the years playing the game , the hardest traffic congestion situations often arise on the non - highway road networks ( street, roads, avenues, one way roads). The reason being obvious, is that the network capacities are significantly lower than the associated network ( highway traffic capacities). So here we actually have a little aid or trick ,if you will of touching a TE lot ( the rtmt combo station in our example) with a highway network ( the level 2 Mis ramp) to filter some of the heavy traffic away from the lower traffic capacity road on to the upper traffic capacity MIS. Where often you have more options in how to deal with these kinda traffic congestion issues.

Although yes , one could argue in my specific example, that we have just about used up all the available space in how we deal with the Ramp # 1 ( red congestion area) + as a secondary traffic concern the orange congestion this has created on the western side of the RHW- 8 s. So it still looks like a hearty challenge to deal with these remaining traffic issues,Which the added traffic onto the highway networks were all newly created by this level hopping occurring at our RTMT combo TE station.

It is an interesting point of discussion though in game play as to whether the glitch is to be viewed in a negative or positive light. :idea:

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Brian, in order to have a good view of the roadways traffic load, I would take the volume view and deselect the subway, so that only the actual volume of traffic on the surface roadways would be shown. Matter of taste, I guess.

The 'jump' of buses from their stop at ground level, to the ramp at L2, is a bug of RTMT 3.60, as Steve told us recently, and should be fixed in RTMT 4. Meanwhile, I would move the ramp one tile away from the bus stop so that this jump would not occur, and we would see a 'real' load on the ramp. (And the bus traffic would have to stay on the ground roadways, which may trigger its own set of issues...).

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Brian, in order to have a good view of the roadways traffic load, I would take the volume view and deselect the subway, so that only the actual volume of traffic on the surface roadways would be shown. Matter of taste, I guess.

The 'jump' of buses from their stop at ground level, to the ramp at L2, is a bug of RTMT 3.60, as Steve told us recently, and should be fixed in RTMT 4. Meanwhile, I would move the ramp one tile away from the bus stop so that this jump would not occur, and we would see a 'real' load on the ramp. (And the bus traffic would have to stay on the ground roadways, which may trigger its own set of issues...).

Pierre , first I wanted to thank you for your detailed reply !

I wanted to address both points you brought up

That is a great idea to use the volume view at times rather than the congestion view, i didn't think of that !

I think there are some difference in the color patterns between the 2, but it is something of course one can get used to. I use medium on the traffic volume view. So for one thing my settings on the congestion are custom created as i think you know. Still using the volume view in certain instances seems a very good idea to me , yes !

I will give this a try next time I load sc4 :dodgy:

I think your also correct with your second comment.,

If the level hopping is going to be fixed soon i should either move that ramp ( which would be difficult) OR-

move the RTMT station so it does not touch the highway any longer. In addition i think by doing this, I would than have congestion under control on both that MIS ramp + the RHW 8S on the west side where all that extra bus traffic is flowing on to.

I plan on doing this today !

thanks for your comments + help, Pierre !

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Pierre,

your suggestion to move the RTMT away from the highways has helped traffic congestion in 3 of the 4 areas.

One of the ramps is now down to yellow level congestion.

The other ramps is at light orange so not too bad there.

This has also had the effect that it has dropped congestion levels on the west side of the rhw-8 S, where it had formerly gone to red..

And even congestion is down on the 4 way subway lines. perhaps because the RTMT station is now further away from the 4 main lines..

5jmc.jpg

thanks, Brian

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Then the removal of the 'jump' from the RTMT station to the ramp helped to alleviate the congestion. I am intrigued by the comment "And even congestion is down on the 4 way subway lines. perhaps because the RTMT station is now further away from the 4 main lines.", and I would like to see a subway view of the area.

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Glad to see that congestion is continuing to go down :) could this open up more building/zoning opportunities if the congestion gets down low enough?

Yup, exactly

The way i typically handle the traffic is, I will develop and build up the population for awhile. Than I will check on traffic and work on solutions and upgrades. At least try to get some of the major (red) congested areas under control, before going back to building up the city again. In this cycle because of the size of the city (1.2 million Sims now), I had a lot of highway areas that needed upgrades and full engineering changes. I am still in the process of those upgrades now. As i stated before it seems the North- West sector of the city is where the densest population has evolved and thus it has the biggest transit and traffic challenges !

Also Pierre,

you asked me for a bit more detail on how the subway system is set up in this area. It is actually a rather simple subway area really. With the bulk of subway traffic runs (East- West).

This is because of the Eastern side of the city map there are some main subway connections to a neighboring (workers city).

Here than is a pic showing the subway set up in this area-

niv7.jpg

a couple of things to be noted-

1) I put in the original location of the RTMT combo station before I moved it further away to its present location. As you can see its original location was a few tiles closer before to the 4 - main subway lines.

2) Also interestingly , almost all of the traffic deriving from the RTMT station is on the evening commute

so we have - evening commute = 12575

Morning commute = 3

I took a couple pics than using the traffic volume view. Where as one advantage of the volume view over the congestion view is the comparisons you can do between commute cycles-

first the morning commute which is overall a bit lighter in traffic -

3r14.jpg

the evening commute volume-

rsxu.jpg

Than finally, i will show the remaining (red) congestion areas in this area where I have been upgrading for quite some time now-

hkij.jpg

All that remains as far as heavy congestion is just the mis ramp at the top of the pic.

And the RHW- 6 S overpass = associated ramp is also still in the red.

Typically i will give priority to overpasses over ramps in terms of initiating upgrades and changes due to traffic congestion issues. So I had planned to look into some options I may have with upgrading the RHW- 6s overpass this morning :idea:

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I was able to finally get the RHW- 6S overpass which was fully congested ( in the red) upgraded to an RHW- 8 S overpass. It did take me awhile as space in this situation was at a premium. Also , I was having a bit of stability issues trying to use the height flex transitions so close to other rhw and mis content. Anyways here is what I was able to do -

wxqo.jpg

This is the shorter version ramp for the level 1 heights= 7.5 meters

I was having issues trying to use the full size ramp here. This was likely caused by the close proximity to the MIS puzzle piece ( 2 tiles spacing)-

f2w0.jpg

As the shorter ramps are 2 tiles less in length, it turned out i had plenty of space to get everything hooked up okay -

0uwlr.jpg

This seems to have pretty big impact on congestion. As currently the overpass is now only light green in congestion with the wider overpass in place.-

s6fv1.jpg

In addition I am now satisfied for the time being with traffic congestion levels in this entire north west section of my city. And this completes upgrades to the transit in this dense area for now.

Next. I will have an overall look at the entire city's traffic and routing to see if other areas can use new upgrades before trying to increase city population even further.

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Well that last area is done for now Capton..

So I have moved on to another area in the city that needs an upgrade for sure.

This new area is a bit further to the South and West of the previous area i was working in .

And I now realize that these recent areas I have been upgrading are actually in the North - East sector of the city and not in the North - West section as I had been stating in earlier postings :s

I will try to edit those postings once I finish here.

In any event this would be considered a centralized East side of the city where I am now working.

I am going to try to do a bit better job this time in documenting what the prior highway systems were before I do the transit planning + constructions phases.

I start with a Zoom # 4 pic of the main highway arteries that currently exist in the upgrade area-

j8c6.jpg

From the pic we can see currently we have 7 main highway arteries which travel in the ( North - South) directions - 6 MIS + 1 RHW- 4, highway networks.These are all either at height level zero or Height level 2 .

The red indicates the South bound networks which total 4.

3 of these are on the outside with one a bit out of sorts to the far inside.

The other 3 north bound arteries are in blue.

Moving out to Zoom 3 -

.. we see the north side of the complex of networks feeds into the large sprawling interchange area which is the south western side of the previous interchange complex.

The South side termination narrows down into a dense residential area.

wpnf.jpg

In addition to the disorganized nature of the highway networks + routing, traffic congestion is also a fairly large issue in the 2 areas circled in blue -

r7et.jpg

Next up will be transit planning pics + routing...

EDIT:

I had time to consider the first small phase of the upgrade-

This area here I propose a new one way route which I have in red here.

This will likely be a one way/ mis hybrid route.

zsv5.jpg

Pre -construction , traffic congestion pic of the area-

jbm6.jpg

Second Edit :

The addition of the new mis network ( which was the first transit improvement in this area)

seemed to have worked quite well in dropping congestion on the associated other networks-

jttg6.jpg

thanks Brian

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Just another quick update before work :

I also realize that just putting in this one extra "through - route" (3.) seems to have decreased congestion in the 7 networks corridor,- 4.

It gives the sims an extra route in reaching there homes it seems.

However I also want to note that I have 2 ramps ( 1 + 2. in my pic) which are in the red in traffic congestion. In addition i still would like to "tidy- up" the 7 networks corridor into something more efficient ... So still planning the full upgrade in this area-

czch4.jpg

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