pierreh

The United Cities of Talaran

102 posts in this topic

Pierre,

Thanks for your excellent posting here !

There are actually 2 things that make your posting the more accurate and reliable information to pass along to the rest of us than what i had to share in my posting..

1) Your memory seems more reliable about the examples we shared,,

2) your example where you show the congested network which has reached its traffic limit ( 65535), Diverging into 2 rail lines which both add up to this exact traffic figure of = (65535), is much more convincing of the way you suggest this works in game than my example where you have multiple networks which Converge into one single network  which also in total surpass this  limit of (65535).. For me to suggest that this would only be due to an error in the Reporting of the traffic total, but not the actual traffic total that the game engine considers was based on conjecture and assumption it would seem and be in error ., given the presentation of your excellent example here :)

I also wanted to mention 3 additional points about this,,

1) I am going to try going back into my cities to find my own example of this traffic limit network issue and if you don't mind Pierre, if i find something that will serve as a good back up example, i will post this in your thread here ?

2) Once I have done 1) above which more fully verifies Pierre's traffic findings of this game limitation , I am wondering what sorta negative effect this might have on our cities in terms of how do these " lost workers( traffic)" effect  the conditions of our cities and in what ways ?

3) Finally.. Is there some kinda directional consideration to take effect from all this..?  Pierre, clearly mentions in his example that all the traffic which had reached our limit of (65535) was all one way.. So would there be any changes in what we have observed  if we have a traffic query preformed which has reached this traffic total, but where the network has traffic going in both directions  ?

Again an excellent post here Pierre, with a clear and easy to understand example of how this works in SC 4 :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting debate! Thanks, Brian, for your comments. I'll develop a bit further here.

1) In my previous example, reproduced from a situation in one of my cluster cities, the interesting fact was that, since the rail traffic was only in one direction, I could establish without any doubt that, if the segment A was saturated at 65535 Sims, it couldn't 'send' more than that number on the other segments B and C in my previous example.

2) Now let's make this more general. We consider the following set up:

97MIf8.jpg

All traffic on the various segments goes in both directions. The central segment A is saturated, maxed out at 65535 Sims.

My thinking is that there cannot be more than a total of 65535 Sims coming from and going to the other segments. That is, the number of SIms travelling on B + C, and the number of SIms travelling on D + E, cannot be higher than 65535.

An interesting point is actually whether the 'excess' incoming Sims get dropped when reaching the central segment, or whether they are not sent at all on their journey. To illustrate: suppose that segment A is maxed out and cannot carry more Sims. Does the Simulator still send SIms on, say, the B segment towards A, and then they fall off from the trains when arriving at the junction from B to A? Or does it not send those Sims at all, trying other paths to reach their destinations, since they cannot pass thru segment A? Intuitively I would say that the Simulator does not send the Sims on B, since they cannot complete their journey, and rather, it tries other paths. It could probably be proven by observations and measurements but I think that this would be extremely tedious to do.

In any case, I think that it provides a good reason to monitor congestion and act on segments of roads, rails, subways, etc, before they max out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre, thanks for your excellent post which provides even better clarification of how this traffic limit works in game and in the arrangements of different network configurations..

I wanted to point out also that to be even more precise in our analysis, its is really " Traffic Type"  which the game engine has imposed this limitation of the number 65535, and not the actual network itself. In most cases of course the network + traffic type would be one in the same 

However in searching through my cities yesterday looking for instances in my larger high density cities of location where I have such heavy network traffic that i have exceeded our traffic limit, i ran across an interesting example ...

So here in the pic provided , I have found an example of a congested network where the total # of vehicles has clearly surpassed our traffic limit of 65535.. Additionally , it should be further noted that all the vehicles on the same side of the avenue travel in the same direction during the morning commute -

A0luaX.jpg

So we can clearly see here that if we add up the total vehicles( the cars + the buses) which = more than 76,000, this clearly surpasses our traffic limit of 65,535.. So it must be "Traffic types" that this game traffic limit would appear to be imposed on , rather than the network itself.. ?..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The limit of 65535 applies, then, to each specific traffic type, for which there exists a counter that can add up to that limit. For railways and subways there is a single traffic type, therefore a single counter. For roads, avenues, NWM roadways and very certainly RHW roadways, there is one counter per traffic type: cars, trucks, buses, etc. Each of these can go to 65535, so that the total can be quite higher than that limit (not taking into account the congestion...).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is time that I reactivate this CJ. I have continued to play the cities in the cluster. The patterns of development that I described earlier have not changed. 7 cities develop well and have now populations of over 600k Sims; 2 cities lag behind.and develop very slowly. The limitations of region playing are becoming noticeable.

I was going to show some fresh pictures, but I have a problem, which I will describe here. It has to do with Steam. As I envisioned upgrading my PC to Windows 10, and since Windows 10 doesn't support CD-based game software, I purchased the Steam version of SC4, and removed the CD-based version. The Steam version works in general properly. There is one issue: it doesn't run in windowed mode, and therefore I cannot toggle back and forth between the game and other programs. This means, in particular, that I can take only one picture at a time, then I have to stop the game, process the picture, and restart the game. This is extremely cumbersome, and actually a pain in the behind.I tried to put -sw in the game launching properties, to no effect; I also tried the alternative -windowed, it doesn't work either.

Is anyone familiar with that issue? Does anyone know how to solve it? If there is no solution to this, it will seriously hamper the continuation of my CJ. Btw, the WIndows 10 upgrade didn't succeed on my PC and I have given up on it,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre,

thanks very much for your update posting here on your CJ..

I do not know how to solves the issues you describe here, but i will ask Leo + Shane ( perhaps Marsh may have an idea also) to read this

, in the hopes that they will have some kinda alternative to this, that will make uploading pics from the game easier for you..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I have found a way to leave SC4 running (in Steam mode), use other Windows-based programs and utilities, and then return to SC4. It simply requires the use of the Windows key on the keyboard. The only downside is that, when returning to the game, there are silly flickering effects a bit all over the screen, but they do not affect the play, so I can live with them.

This means that I will again be able to show some pics of my cities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre,

this is quite good news here..

And i will be looking forward to the return of your CJ soon !

 

Brian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I explained earlier that I am primarily interested in transportation networks. It seems that, because I am providng my Sims with good mass transit facilities, they are flocking en masse to the trams, buses, subways, etc, to the extent that few of them bother driving their cars to work and back. I get rather extreme modal splits in favor of mass transit. Here are examples in the city of Prandergal, on which I was working lately. First, a view of tram tracks from a residential area, going towards the CBD (that is located under the bottom of the picture):

SMUKvM.jpg

For the avenue (A) I show the stats. Of the total 53683 travelers on the avenue, 96% use the tram, and only 4% travel by car. This is excessive. Besides, the tram on that avenue is nearing saturation, and with 3 residential buildings under construction and more already zoned across the avenue, there will be even more Sims needing to go to work, most of which will be using the tram. For the record, the number of tram users on the 2 other tracks are: B = 39124, and C = 46363; I forgot to record the number of car users on those roadways, but the modal split was very close to that observed on the A avenue.

A 4th tram link will be installed; I'll report about the effect of that measure later.

 

Also as described earlier, the tram tracks turn into subway in the CBD. In the same city one stretch of subway is very critical:

WyKhQd.jpg

In that case, since the suwbay runs under a avenue, the tracks will be doubled - a second parallel tunnel - between the stations where the usage is high.

 

Meanwhile, starting on the 4th tram link I encourntered the following situation:

5TXcxV.jpg

The puzzle piece allowing a straight tram-in-road to cross a diagonal avenue doesn't exist, and won't ever, especially because it seems that puzzle pieces are an endangered species in NAM (much to my chagrin). A solution involving a short stretch of subway under the road/avenue crossing, and 2 TiR-to-subway transitions, is one way of dealing with the issue, which I may end up implementing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Pierre i agree,

this is too bad that puzzle piece was never created..

So you will have to work hard a providing an alternative route. But i am confident it will be some quality routing done by you !

Otherwise , the pics show your amazing usual ability to have high volume mass transit networks..That i do not know of anyone

who can do this better really..

I am just a bit curious if you plan on taking measures to increase the amount of car traffic in your city by % compared to the %

you have now of mass transit ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have had that happen in SC4 a lot with different roads. I have no idea how to fix it so I destroy them and go again till it works. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the solution adopted for the crossing of tram tracks with a diagonal avenue. I was helped by Robin (mgb204 at SC4D) for the implementation. Of course the puzzle piece that would allow the tram-in-road to cross the avenue doesn't exist, but the solution of moving the tracks to the side of the road for the crossing of the avenue satisfies me fully. The straight GLR tracks are dragged tracks.

EYvOU8.jpg

 

@bben: For the time being I don't envision specific measures to get more Sims to use their cars. However, depending on how the usage of mass transit develops, especially if it leads to widespread saturation of tram and subway tracks, I'll have to intervene in some way, and get more car usage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre,

that is a very nice solution and idea that you and robin came up with !

like that a  lot my friend..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may have given the impression that SIms in my cluster cities don't use their cars a lot. This should not be generalized. Here are two pictures of a stretch of RHW-6S in the city of Trelayne, that shows a rather high usage:

d5T4vN.jpg

That stretch of highway links Trelayne with the central city of Arcens - the connector pieces would be to the right, not far from where the pictures were taken. The connector pieces themselves show numbers that differ from those shown above, even though there are no intervening ramps that could add or subtract traffic - but that issue of connectors, linked to regional playing in general, is another matter that will be discussed again later..

At some point I'll probably have to upgrade the highway to RHW-8S to increase its capacity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre,

 

thanks for your update here !

Indeed this is quite the busy highway you have here. And its a nice job by you to also encourage some heavy

car traffic usages also on some of your highways.. too compliment the "always" great job you seem to do with your

mass transit systems.

I will be looking forward to more updates from you soon, my friend..

 

brian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue of these saturated RHW-6S highways is more widespread than I thought. Here is an example in another city (Salveille):

swBplT.jpg

About in the middle of the picture, the RHW-6S expands to a RHW-8S, and the 4th lane takes up a part of the load, so that the traffic on the other 3 lanes is a bit reduced. However, what the picture doesn't show is that the 4th lane is in fact going to an exit ramp, so that, beyond the exit ramp the remaining 3 lanes of the RHW-6S are again showing red. (We also notice that the other direction has no traffic at all; this is a bit odd and will bear further investigation, later....).

One of my next activities will be to identify the various occurences of heavy traffic on those highways, and upgrade them - in the above case, from RHW-6S to RHW-8S.

Incidentally, Brian, I haven't purposedly encouraged the heavy car (and bus and even freght trucks) usage on those highways. I merely laid the highways at the beginning as backbone of the cities' transportation network and as one of the networks between cities (the other one being plain railway); as the cities grow, the majority of those highways are being well used, in a sort of natural way. The upgrade activity will be the first enhancement of those highways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre..

are you still using ultra as your traffic sim plug in ?

Because given that amount of traffic your reporting there, offhand that does not look like it should be red on the congestion view..

One item about traffic on the RHW -6 S, that i think you are already aware of, is that you have to factor in total traffic .on BOTH commutes.

So it is also what is the amount of traffic on the other commute ?

And than you have to add the 2 commutes together  = total traffic .

Your pic does not show which commute this is, as to whether it is morning or evening commute ?

I had to do a lot of research on this because i always forget or get mixed up but..

I am pretty sure that the Network capacities we see listed in these tables are based on the formula

network capacity = (morning+evening) commutes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your observations, Brian!

I will post a more detailed answer tomorrow. I can already tell you that all my pics always show the morning commute. I rarely bother about the evening commute - perhaps I should, it appears. Here is another picture from the city I was working on today. It shows a very saturated parclo, in which I used RHW-4:

KysCwm.jpg

The bus figure is rather extreme, and so is the total.The upgrade will be difficult.

(To be continued...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My traffic sim plugin is the ultra one. Since I selected that option a long time ago, I don't remember the criteria I used to choose it.

Likewise, I don't remember about having to factor in the total traffic of both commutes. I could try to search for discussions about that in the documentation and in some threads on the SC4D site - contributions by Steve, most likely.. Does that factoring in apply to the volume view, or to the congestion view? My volume views (which I haven't shown until now) are good, there are no occurences of red,

In any case I have always had some difficulty to understand the notion of 'network capacity' in the game. For roads, highways, etc, the capacity is usually expressed in numbers of vehicles per some unit of time - hours or days, For example, 3000 vehicles per hour. In the game, it seems that the time unit is the day, but I never saw it expressed specifically in the doc. Also, Steve was always fond of reminding us that there are no cars, buses, trucks, etc, on the game's roadways. The numbers are those of 'things' moving from A to B. Can we say that they are 'Sims'? When we see 15060 cars on a roadway, assuming that there is only one person per car (which is not far from the reality), this means 15060 Sims travelling. But 27304 buses? Certainly not! Rather, I would think, 27304 Sims travelling on board buses. If we assume 50 people per bus on a highway (because only sitting passengers are allowed for security reasons), this would require about 550 buses - still a high number. City buses can carry about 100 people, including standing ones; articulated city buses can accomodate 120-140 people. Those numbers don't seem very realistic in the game.

I'll rest my case for now, but this discussion will be open for a while...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to correct a wrong statement in my previous post. I wrote " My volume views (which I haven't shown until now) are good, there are no occurences of red,". No, actually, all pictures I have shown until now were volume views; it's the congestion views that show no occurence of red; I'll be showing some of those views later.

I reviewed careful the very long tutorial "Understanding the Traffic Simulator" in the SC4D Wiki. It was an interesting and refreshing read. Here are some quotes:

 

1. " First of all, it is important to note that despite its name, the traffic simulator isn't actually the part of the game that simulates traffic, at least as it is visible to the players. Visible traffic is generated by the automata controller, which is only loosely influenced by the traffic simulator. Aside from the automata, there is no actual traffic in the game. Instead, the traffic simulator runs about once every four game months, and calculates routes for the Sims to take to and from work."

This confirms what Steve releated in other posts: there is no actual traffic, anywhere in a city. It's only numbers of routes.

 

2. " All Sims who travel by bus or car, or simply as pedestrians, count equally toward road traffic volume. So do trucks."

This confirms what I was wrinting in my previous post. When we see '27304 buses', it means only that the simulator calculated 27304 routes by bus on the stretch of roadway where the query is made. The game has no notion of how many Sims fit in a bus, or in a tram, or in a subway, etc., and it doesn't matter since there is no actual traffic of any kind.

 

3. The definition of the Network Traffic Capacity property is " This property specifies the nominal daily capacities of all of the networks (...)". We can infer from this that the traffic of the morning commute and the evening commute need to be added to yield the daily capacity. It is probably stated explicitely in some post, and since Brian queried Akex (Tarkus) about it recently we may have a confirmation of it soon. At any rate it makes sense.

 

4. " Although the network capacities are floating point numbers and can therefore have any realistic value, there is an important limitation imposed by the Traffic Volume Data View. The volume of traffic that can be displayed during any commute period is limited to an unsigned 16-bit number, or 64K - 1 (65,535). Networks can actually carry more traffic than this, and the additional traffic will show up in the Traffic Congestion Data View, but the traffic volume displayed will never go above 65,535. This should be taken into account when designing network capacities."

The '65,535 limitation' is then one of display only, but the networks can carry more traffic. This is important to me, because I have networks in the Talaran cluster which are close to, or ven at, this limit value inthe traffic volume view, and this should occur even more often as the cities continue to grow. I'll be less worried about this, and i'll also monitor the congestion views more closely. Upgrading my RHW highways becomes less of a priority, especially since I encountered the - already reported - problem of 90 degrees smooth curves for RHW.8S being apparently unsupported.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre,

thanks for your highly informative posting about understanding the traffic sim !!

I really enjoyed reading about the key areas you chose for your postings..

 

I will be embarking on my most ambitious RHW construction upgrade to date today. in "the Isles" .

Which is to start the expansion of my main RHW-2 highway, to a more "interstate" style of the RHW-4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the next challenge: in one of the cities, a aection of RHW-6S needs to be upgraded to RHW-8S (actually, that upgrade could probably be postponed for a while, but I have decided that it would be done without delay). That section includes a smooth dual 90-degrees curve, that was built by using 45-degrres RHW-6S inner and outer curves, and filling the gaps between those curves with diagonal puzzle pieces:

Ee1tMa.jpg

 

Now, I can't use the same method with RHW-8S, because there are no diagonal puzzle pieces for that network. I asked Robin for help and he showed me a very creative solution, that I wouldn't have thought about even after pondering about it a very long time.. The solution will require to tear down some buildings and infrastructures in the vicinity of the curve, during the construction, after which the area will be rebuilt.

As soon as I remember in which city the upgrade has to be performed (I forgot to record that), the upgrade will proceed and I'll show the result here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now